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March 22, 2022

66: Plant Fibers

66: Plant Fibers

This week's episode is all about alternative plant fibers - linen (flax), bamboo, and hemp. This week's letter is about how to add (or subtract) waist shaping.


Designers' posts about waist shaping (not an exhaustive list, just a few that we like!):

The Make Good Stashdown is still going!

It will continue until March 31, so there's still a little time to join. Join the fun by posting photos with the tag #makegoodstashdown (no year, please!)

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Transcript

NaN Hi, and welcome to Make Good, the podcast about yarn and knitting from scratch supplier. We're recording today in downtown Lebanon, New Hampshire, and we're really excited to be here. I'm Karen.NaN And I'm Jessica.

NaN Should we talk about some alternative fibers today?

NaN Oh, for sure.

NaN We've had episodes about wool, different types of wool, breeds of sheep, all that sort of thing. We did an episode about cotton. But what about other plant fibers that you can get yarn out of?

NaN You've got options, friends. This week we're talking about the three most common other plant fibers that you will find in yarn. We're going to talk about linen, bamboo and hemp.

NaN I would say that both Jessica and I because of where we live and how cold it is and all that kind of thing, primarily knit with wool. But there are lots of other things that you can make yarn out of.

NaN Let's jump right into linen. So linen fibers come from the flax plant, and the fibers from the stalks of this plant have been processed into textile fibers for thousands of years. You might be familiar with linen as woven fabric, linen shirts and pants and all sorts of fancy flowy garments.

NaN So there's that thing that fiber people do where they try to create a garment the whole way through that fibers lifecycle. So if they have the sheep, then they have the sheep, or maybe they get a fleece, and then they'll spin the yarn and dye the yarn and knit the yarn. I've heard of people who do something very similar with, like, historical reenactment, where they will grow or maybe buy, depending on their climate, the flax, and then they'll carry it all the way through to this woven fabric that they will sew a garment out of.

NaN It's a really involved process, but it's definitely a plant fiber that you can process by hand and spin by hand. Linen is also, in addition to having deep historical roots in textile world is a sustainable fiber. So flax plants grow really easily in a range of climates, and there is minimal use of fertilizers and pesticides involved in the growing of flax. So it's a good fiber choice for people who are interested in keeping the environmental impact of their fiber habits pretty low. Once flax fibers have been processed into linen yarn, there are distinct properties that as a knitter, you might be interested in knowing about before you select it for a project. Linen is a really strong and smooth fiber, and it's got great moisture, wicking properties, and it's quick drying. It's nice for warmer maybe sweater weather where you're trying to keep your body temperature in a comfortable zone.

NaN It doesn't pill, which is lovely, which is fantastic. You can do wild things to it, and it won't pill and it ages really well. So not only is it not eventually turning into a bunch of pills, but it will get softer and more comfortable. Yeah.

NaN Washing and wearing your linen really makes a big difference. If you are the type of slow fashion knitter that also sews, you might have a lot of experience sewing with linen and appreciating how your garments get better with age.

NaN I think the last linen that we sold in the shop was a linen wool blend. And I have to say that knitting with it was not my favorite because it was still really stiff. Yes.

NaN The linen and wool blend that we used to have in the shop. At one point we had a trunk show from that company, and there were garments that were made with it where touching the samples knit with that yarn was a completely different experience than touching the yarn in the skein or with working with it. It was very kind of trapy and relaxed once it was already knit up and finished and blocked. So sometimes it's hard to tell touching a skein and then trying to infer what that's going to translate into thinking of a knitted or even crocheted fabric? Just very different.

NaN What are some things that you should be aware of if you're thinking about getting yourself either a linen blend or full on 100% linen to knit with?

NaN So the first thing to consider is that linen is inelastic. It's a very strong fiber and it has no bounce. So if you need that springy in yarn when you're hand knitting things, you might consider looking at a linen that's blended with wool or alpaca or something to kind of give your hands a break. If a really rigid fiber is not your best friend, it's also a heavy fiber. And when I say a heavy fiber, I mean it actually weighs a lot like it's dense. A lot of times when you find linen yarns, if they're 100% linen, it's going to be like maybe sport weight, but probably fingering or lace weight, you're going to be hard pressed to find a worsted weight or a bulky weight 100% linen. At that point, I think you're looking at rope.

NaN Which you could probably knit with. Sure.

NaN But it'll be like very rigid. And if somebody knows of one and they love their worsted weight or bulky weight linen and it knits up beautifully into gorgeous garments, correct me. Let me know what it is because I'm not aware of any at this point in time. It's right there at this time.

NaN We cannot get it for you because it's kind of stiff to work with before it's been washed and worn. It's not necessarily a great choice for very dense or heavily textured projects. You're maybe not going to enjoy knitting cables with it.

NaN For example, although maybe you would not like a fisherman sweater. No, not my first choice for that kind of project.

NaN And you may or may not care about this at all, but just something to be aware of. It does wrinkle really easily.

NaN That's true of woven fabrics or knit fabrics, because it's a rigid fiber, you're going to bend it, increase it, and it's going to want to hold that shape a little bit. I have very strong memories of the 80s when linen was popular. Like, popular in a different way than it is now. Miami Vice popular. You'd see linen garments, and I can just remember my mom saying, linen, wrinkles. It wrinkles. I know in the modern sewing handmade communities, lots of sewers are like, yeah, it wrinkles and it's great and relaxed and comfy and exactly how I want it to look. So it very much comes down to your personal aesthetic and your feelings about wrinkles. I say, yeah, wrinkles. It's fine with me. It's that cozy, lived in look.

NaN So what sorts of things do you think would be good to use it for?

NaN Linen is kind of like your sleeper fiber for knitting for your home. Oh, if you want to knit hand towels or washcloths, it's a great option because it will withstand heavy use. It has a secret quality that you may or may not be aware of. But linen is naturally antifungal and antibacterial. So for things that are going to be getting wet and hanging around in your sink, that's a great property to have.

NaN This is like secret insider knowledge.

NaN That's right. And I know lots of people who weave use linen for things like beautiful hand towels. And if you have a weaving friend, you're always kind of secretly hoping, am I going to get the hand towels from this recent match that they're weaving? And if you're lucky, you will. And if you're into making things for your home, placemats are another excellent option. Placemats may not have occurred to you, but they have, like, hot dishes on them or other things that you put out on your table. And they will be a good option for withstanding that. It's not an overly precious fiber. So if you spill sauce from the pot on it, you can run it through the wash and it will be in great shape later. You can also use linen for knitting summer weight tees and tanks. You want like an easy breezy top for sunny afternoons in the park or at the beach or wherever you spend your outside in the sunshine time, linen might be a nice option for you. And when you're choosing patterns, you might not regularly look for patterns that feature seaming. You might be a "I don't sew" kind of knitter. But this is a good opportunity to take advantage of patterns with seams, because seaming will provide the structure that your linen is going to be lacking on its own. And with something like a tank top, it's not a whole lot of sewing. It should be manageable.

NaN That makes sense. Okay, so as another alternative fiber, what about bamboo?

NaN Bamboo is an interesting one. So when you think about bamboo, you think about plants. And we know that lots of things are made out of bamboo like you can get bamboo flooring, you might have a bamboo cutting board in your house. In order to turn bamboo fiber into knittable yarn, a lot of processing has to happen. So while bamboo fibers are plant fibers, bamboo yarn is actually considered a biosynthetic fiber, much like Rayon or viscose or modal, which are other plantbased fibers. And if you're not familiar with those terms, they're generally used in fabric world, so if you're not a sewist you might not have a lot of experience with them. But those are also cellulosic fibers that have been heavily processed to turn them into textiles. But despite heavy processing, it's not a particularly environmentally damaging process. So it's still considered a sustainable fiber. Bamboo the plant grows really quickly without the use of fertilizers or pesticides and fiber for turning bamboo into yarn can be harvested without killing the plants. The plants will continue to grow.

NaN Oh, nice.

NaN So it's a quickly renewable resource as well, and will be biodegradable if you decide to compost your sweater that has lived its life and is ready to move on.

NaN The way bamboo feels is going to depend really heavily on how it was processed. It could be kind of shiny and a little silky. It could feel like cotton. Overall no matter how it's processed, it's going to be soft and smooth, and it drapes really well because it is a plant fiber. It's also hypoallergenic and it's antibacterial. It's breathable and lightweight and, a lot like linen, it's really strong and durable, and the color tends not to fade on it, which is great if you're knitting something that you care about the color of.

NaN Especially if it's like a summer weight thing and you're out in the sunshine a lot, which sounds like a funny thing to say. I feel like we don't spend a lot of time thinking about how colorfast our fibers are in general, everyday knitwear. You put on your sweater and you go in the morning. But we think about it sometimes because we have samples of things that get put in the windows of our shop that experience lots of intense sunlight. And every once in a while we take a look at them and we think it's time to turn over the window because that sweater has faded on one side.

NaN Yeah, it will be like a noticeable many shades difference between the front and the back. And it is kind of funny to think about. You don't notice it happening.

NaN Those UV rays are no joke, friends.

NaN So what are some things that you should be aware of if you want to knit with bamboo?

NaN Good question. Bamboo tends to lose its shape over time. So when you're thinking about knitting a garment with bamboo, think of it a little bit like you would think of a super wash wool. If you're knitting yourself a whole sweater out of super wash wool, you know that it's going to stretch and grow. It doesn't have quite the same bounce and elasticity that a nontreated wool does. Bamboo kind of does that too. Similar to cotton, where an all cotton sweater will stretch and get long over time. And you're like, wow, did my arms get little or did my sleeves get big? It's also not elastic at all, and while it's softer than something like linen--so you might think I could make a variety of other things with this--don't knit socks, because if you recall our prior conversations about socks, you know that your socks need to have some negative ease to keep them on your feet. Well, if you knit a sock out of bamboo--100% bamboo--with negative ease, you will never get your foot in there.

NaN So I'm thinking about this. Your hair will stretch to varying degrees. Wool has elasticity to it because it's made of hair. But if you, like, stepped outside and you found a plant and you pulled on it, it's either not going to stretch or it's going to break.

NaN Yes, I think that's accurate for most plants. I don't know off the top of my head of anything that's real springy and bouncy.

NaN If you walk up to a stock of bamboo and you're, like, be taller, it's not going to happen.

NaN No.

NaN Okay.

NaN Plant fiber is not stretchy. If it grew on a mammal, you're probably in good shape.

NaN Bamboo is susceptible to mildew, and getting it wet makes it a little more fragile.

NaN I was doing some reading about bamboo, and in lots of places I was finding references to it losing its strength in water. What does that mean? It's not real clear to me. I've never had a knit bamboo thing that I've submerged in water repeatedly, so it's fuzzy to me. But I'm thinking maybe since it's prone to mildew and is not great in water, don't use the bamboo to knit your summer bathing suit, because bad combination of not great attributes.

NaN If you have, like, bamboo utensils.

NaN Right.

NaN Like a bamboo spatula or something that you use and you run it through the dishwasher a bunch. Or you do the thing where you fill up a bowl with water and then you put all your stuff to soak, and then you wash it. It'll make it, like, swell and break. Bamboo doesn't do well with that. And so maybe it's the same thing. It's growing every time you water it, it grows.

NaN Oh, you and your creepy plant.

NaN All right, so you're not knitting a bathing suit with it.

NaN Not this year, no.

NaN What would you suggest using it for?

NaN I think that bamboo is really well suited to things like lightweight shawls and wraps. I often see on ye olde Instagram knitters that live in Southern climes who have these beautiful shawls. And I know that from talking to other yarn shop owners. A lot of Southern shops have huge cohorts of shawl knitters.

NaN Yes.

NaN Because it's a great way to knit beautiful, amazing fabric. That we all love creating without making super hot garments. Some of us need that. Some of us definitely do not. So this is an opportunity for your bamboo yarn and bamboo blends to shine. It's also really nice for summer weight tops and kid and baby knits. I found lots and lots of recommendations for bamboo and bamboo blends for kidnits, because it holds up well to being washed repeatedly. And despite the fact that it kind of grows, I think that kids grow, too.

NaN I was just going to say, so us your baby. Okay, the last alternative fiber that we're going to talk about today is hemp.

NaN Yeah, hemp. Hemp is a plant fiber derived from the stalks of cannabis sativa plants, which is sometimes referred to as industrial hemp. It is probably one of the less common plant fibers used in yarn for knitting. But it's been used in textiles for thousands of years, and it's strong and durable, so it's got lots of uses. People have historically used hemp for rope. Everyone knows hemp rope. It's possible that you have macramed yourself a hemp necklace or bracelet at some point in your life. It's also used for twine. People make sandals with hemp. People make shrouds with hemp. You can make paper. There's all sorts of different options, and fabric and yarn are some of those options.

NaN As an option, hemp is really sustainable, kind of like linen. It's processed really easily. You don't need fertilizers or pesticides to grow it. It's just overall low environmental impact, and it will biodegrade.

NaN So hemp is one of those fibers that's also really strong and durable. Plant fibers, A+ for durability. It's a good insulator, which was a little surprising for me to learn, but hemp apparently is good at holding heat.

NaN Oh, nice.

NaN And unlike our friend bamboo, it is mildew resistant and absorbent. A+. Hemp fibers are also kind of similar to linen in that they don't pill and will soften with washing over time. So your initial fabric might be a little stiffer or more structured than you were dreaming of when you started a project. But with some wear and some washing, it kind of breaks those fibers in so that they relax. And they also take dye really well and are color fast. So you've got whatever vibrant color you've come up with when you've dyed the fiber, and it's going to stay.

NaN Nice. Some things to maybe be aware of, if you're thinking about knitting with hemp. It can be really coarse. That's always the first thing I personally think of. So it'll be a little rough on your hands. You want to take care of your hands when you're working with it. It can be a little stiff, like the other plant fibers it's inelastic, it's heavy. And because it's kind of a rigid fiber, it's going to make the differences in tension between your stitches more visible. It's not selfadjusting as you go. It's going to kind of stay where you put it. So what would you recommend making with hemp?

NaN Hemp is a really good option for house things, again. You can make market bags with hemp and they'll be really durable. You can March out to your little farmer's market and pick up a melon or a bag of potatoes or something and feel real fashionable in chic because you've knit your market bag or crocheted it. It's also another great fiber for things in your kitchen, like place mats, trivets, things that are going to get lots of heavy use but you want to still be easy to clean and be handmade by you.

NaN Your slightly scrubby dish cloths.

NaN If you're going to use it for knits for yourself or someone else, you want to be looking for projects that are calling for looser gauge. You don't want to make really dense-gauge fabrics because they're going to remain stiff. Having things at a looser gauge will allow the fabric to kind of drape and soften. Open lace patterns look pretty good in hemp because it will kind of keep those details but also will spread so you can see the stitch definition. And working at a looser gauge will be easier on your hands. You're not like fighting with that rigid immovable yarn. You've got big open, loose stitches and there's less tension against your fingers.

NaN And that means that when you block it, you will be able to even out some of your tension stuff. If you had tension stuff.

NaN We all have tension stuff. Who are we kidding.

NaN Right.

NaN If you want to make garments rather than accessories and you want to use hemp, you might have better luck looking for hemp blends rather than 100% hemp fiber. And big picture, if you are looking to experiment with plant fibers and you're not generally a plant fiber person, there's some things that you can do to troubleshoot how differently cellulosic fibers behave compared to animal protein fibers.

NaN Right. Things like changing your needles. If you normally use bamboo needles, you might find that it's a little grabby. So maybe metal will work a little better for you. And this is all very personal hands, personal knitting style dependent. Like you're going to need to experiment to find what works best for you. But your stainless steel isn't going to be like, come back to me fiber that came from me.

NaN They're not trying to become one?

NaN Right.

NaN You also might try experimenting with different yarn constructions so a single ply in all plant fibers might feel too rigid for your hands. Preferred working state. And if that's the case, you might look for plant fibers that have chainette construction, which, if you're not familiar with that term, if you've seen the yarn that kind of looks like an i-cord, that's chainette, and the structure of that yarn has a little bounce built into it because of how the fibers are arranged. So that will give your otherwise rigid fibers a little bit of bounce and be easier on you as the knitter.

NaN I've often been hesitant to use chainette construction yarn because I thought that would be, like, overwhelmingly visible texture in your finished object. But it really isn't. We have Woolstok Jumbo, which is very different than this, that is chainette structure. And even at a huge scale, you don't notice it unless you know to look for it in the finished object. And then the other thing you can do if you want to try out some different fibers is find a blend. Different combinations of different fibers might give you some of the things that you're looking for in a plant based fiber without giving up some of the things you like about a protein based fiber, like wool. Like elasticity, like bloom, like give when you're working with it, all that kind of stuff, you could keep it and still experiment with some of these alternative fibers. So those are just a few of the possible plant fibers other than cotton. There are a bunch more. There are so many. Basically, if it's ever grown out of the ground, someone has tried to make yarn out of it at some point.

NaN If you have favorites, you should let us know. We're always interested in what people are making, and we'd love to see and hear about what kinds of things you're making with your plant based fibers this spring.

NaN So what's on your needles, Jessica?

NaN Okay. I had grand plans of telling you about some new cast-on project this week, and I'm not. Because I didn't. I am in a state of knitter paralysis right now, and by that I mean I am struggling to identify what my next project will be. I'm very caught up in looking for my travel knitting for this Scotland trip, and I'm feeling overwhelmed by choice and also my selfimposed restrictions in how much yarn I'm willing to take with me on a trip where I'm going to be acquiring yarn.

NaN Yeah.

NaN I have gotten to a point, though, in my Soorik knitting, where I have finally knit through all of the yarn that I frogged out of the Lotta dress. So all of this yarn has been knit once and frogged and knit again, and I have wound a new skein. And now it is forward motion. It's been a journey, but I have renewed enthusiasm for the endless tube of gray stockinette stitch because it's new yarn, not the yarn that I've already knit. So that's where I am with that. Are you all right? What's on your needles, Karen?

NaN Ok, kind of nothing. And here's why. I think I've mentioned a couple of times in previous episodes that I'm working on these nebulous other things. Two of them got finished, and it was really a big effort push to the end. So our store now has an app, which, let me tell you, I didn't know how to build an app before. Very much we are all about learning by doing and oh, boy, a lot of focused computer time. And this one has been a year in the making and if you follow the store on social media, you may be already saw this, but we are officially a certified B Corporation as of a few days ago.

NaN Yay.

NaN Which again, it's a really valuable process. It's a really intense process. We learned a lot and grew as a company and as people in doing it. But oh, boy, is it a lot of work. And the last little bit was surprise bunches of work at the last minute. We're super excited about it.

NaN And it ate all your knitting energy.

NaN It ate all of my knitting energy and all of my focus. All of my focus time. So I've been doing that instead of knitting. But now I'm back to knitting going forward. So I'll hopefully have something exciting to tell you about next week

NaN Clean slate.

NaN Yep.

NaN Fresh project.

NaN Are you ready for a letter?

NaN Mmhmm, I sure am.

NaN This week's letter comes from Sarah.

NaN Hi, Sarah.

NaN The question I have was inspired by your recent episode on sweater vocabulary. When talking about the body of a sweater you mentioned you can shape if you want. I've been searching for a shaped sweater pattern for a long time. I don't want a potato sack of a sweater. I also don't want a drop under the armpits. I want that to fit nicely also. I never thought of creating my own shaping until you mentioned it. How would I go about determining where and how much to shape? Is this going to be a mathematical nightmare? Have either of you gone through the process and can you share the details one needs to take into account?

NaN That's a great question, Sarah, because "you can shape the body of your sweater if you want to" was kind of a vague instruction in our sweater episode, but really it's kind of true. You can if you want to or you cannot. So there are lots of sweater patterns out there that do have waste shaping built in. If you are looking on Ravelry for your patterns, I would suggest looking through the pictures will give you information pictures of projects, but if you look through the Tags on the pattern pages or look through descriptions and project notes, you'll find information about that. Once you identify designers that have an aesthetic that you like, you will find that often if they have waist shaping in one pattern, they may have it in lots of other sweater patterns. Waist shaping is very much an aesthetic choice in design. And I can say that personally, I never add waist shaping to anything, and if I'm going to alter a sweater, I'm probably going to crop it some. And that's because it's what I like aesthetically, and I'm very short-waisted. So knitting something with waist shaping just feels like a waste of shaping because there's not a lot of space to put it in on my particular body. Are you a waist shaper, Karen?

NaN Yes. And I actually find I often have to, because I have such a long torso, do my waist shaping in a different place than the pattern calls for. So what I will do if I'm either modifying it because the body is shorter than I usually knit or if I'm adding it where it isn't usually there, I will do the first bit of waist shaping where you're like eliminating a couple of stitches somewhere a little under my lowest rib. That's where I'll start the waist shaping. And to do that, it depends a little bit. But the easiest way, I think, to add it in, if it's not already there, is you have your - I'm going to call them side seams. They're not probably seams, but maybe you have stitch markers, or if you don't, you count from the center of the underarm and you just do a decrease one stitch away from where that stitch marker or that seam is.

NaN Do you do it on both sides of that seam?

NaN Yes. You'll eliminate two stitches and then you go a little bit lower, depending. You could do like ten rows or an inch and a half, something like that, depending on your personal waist. And then do that again. And then I usually find that two rounds of those decreases, which is like four stitches total in each round, works for me most of the time. And then I will usually knit about four inches, just straight, no changes. And then do kind of mirrored increases to get me back to the original stitch count.

NaN Awesome.

NaN And this is all very personal. Like, you may be somebody who has a very narrow torso and very wide hips, in which case you may want more increases than you wanted decreases. Or you could be the other way around. You could have very narrow hips and then like a more triangular torso, in which case you might want more decreases than you want increases. Totally dependent on you.

NaN Yes. If you're going to be inserting your own waist shaping into a sweater. Measurements are so important. And we talked about this in the last episode where we were answering people's questions. If you need help enlist a friend or your local yarn shop or whatever you need to do to get accurate measurements of your body. Because if you're making changes to a pattern, you can't just guess, unless you are inclined to knit, try on and be ready to pull back and make changes based on that. But that seems like a tremendous amount of work that's avoidable. There are some very detailed, kind of math oriented blog posts from network designers about doing this thing specifically, and we are going to link to them in this week's show Notes. But Andrea Rangel and Amy Herzog both have written really excellent descriptions of things to consider when you're putting shaping into a sweater that doesn't currently exist there where you want to take measurements on your body and based on your gauge, how to determine the numbers of stitches that you'll need to decrease and then correspondingly increase or vice versa if you're knitting bottom up instead of top down. But definitely check out the show notes and follow those links to get a more indepth reading, because it's a lot of math. Mad, mad, mad, mad, mad. But it's not complicated or overwhelming math. I just think it makes not very interesting listening math. Right. And much easier to visualize if you can look at how to take those measurements and notes and then plug them into equations. But it's definitely a doable thing. You can make those alterations to your knits on your own.

NaN So when I was doing training as a Pilates teacher, we had to go through all of our manuals and cross out every reference to the belly button and talk about midway between hip and low rib. This is one of those things you never think about. People's belly buttons are all over the place, and I think people tend to assume, as I did until I had this experience with the manual, that where yours is is where they go. Not true. They're all over the place, and often that is used as a landmark in these instructions for measuring. You just want to take a look and figure out where your narrowest point is. If you're trying to get a measurement, don't worry about where your belly button is in relation to that, because the person who is making those instructions could be wildly differently proportioned than you.

NaN That's a really good point. My narrowest point of my waist is not really related to where my navel is located at all.

NaN Yes.

NaN Different parts of my body.

NaN Yeah, it's really funny. So the Stashdown is still going on.

NaN It's shocking. This feels like the longest knitalong ever, but it's not really all of them go for like two months. I think I'm just overwhelmed by the number of projects you all are posting.

NaN Yes, it feels like it's going for a long time because nobody is stopping. There no "I finished it, and now I'm moving on." It's stashing all the way down.

NaN So impressive. And we're so excited and proud of all of your creative solutions to using up the yarn that's just been haunting you and your house, finishing up work in progress, getting fancy and knitting tiny dogs and crocheting your first projects, and doing all sorts of exciting things that maybe you had never thought about before. You all are motivated and it's beautiful and you have time to keep posting. So it's March 22. There's like a week left of this stash down. That means you still have time to use up some more yarn. I know that you have a sock in a project bag at the back of your closet that just needs the toe grafted. Go find it and finish it, stashdown entry, boom you could win.

NaN I do really love how many of the Stashdown projects are finishing that unfinished project.

NaN It's so good and what a productive feeling to be like I need this thing. I almost finished it and then I just couldn't face the last step and it's been sitting there for so long and now instant gratification you have a new finished project that you can wear or use or gift. It's amazing.

NaN This is like a yarn exorcism.

NaN For sure.

NaN I think that might be it for us this week.

NaN It definitely is. You can listen to us wherever podcasts are available. You can also subscribe to us probably where you're listening right now.

NaN You can follow us on Instagram at makegoodpod and you can go to our website makegoodpod.com for the show notes. And the transcript.

NaN Big thank you to our Patreon supporters. You all are amazing. We love you. We are about to fill you up with so much Scotland amazing goodness in the coming weeks but your support helps us to be able to do this every week without advertisers so big sincere thank you

NaN and you can send us questions to dearscratch at scratchsupplyco.com. And we'll talk to you next week.

NaN Bye.