We're talking about test knitting - what it is, how to do it, when not to do it. This week's letter is about how to do two-color color work when your non-dominant hand is on its own program.
This week's episode is about the test knitting process - what to expect, how to do it, and when you should probably give a testing call a pass. (Hint: It's if you don't want to to knit the thing.)
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Karen 00:07 Hi, and welcome to Make Good, the podcast about yarn and knitting from scratch supplier. We're recording today in downtown Lebanon, New Hampshire. We're really excited to be here.
Jessica 00:15 I'm Karen. And I'm Jessica.
Karen 00:16 What are we talking about today?
Jessica 00:18 We are talking about test knitting.
Karen 00:21 Right. Because you've been doing a lot of test knitting.Â
Jessica 00:25 This has been my test knitter start to the year that I didn't necessarily think was going to happen. But it's been fun.
Karen 00:33 Yeah. Question Mark.
Jessica 00:34 Yes, it's been fun testing.
Karen 00:37 It feels a little bit to me like tech editing in that it feels a little mysterious if you don't know how to do it or how it happens on the back end. And what does it even mean to be a test knitter?
Jessica 00:49 So test knitters are knitters who are basically volunteering to do homework. I think that's how I think of myself as a test knitter, really.
Karen 01:00 But basically what it is.
Jessica 01:02 Is you are testing a pattern in its final stages. It's basically beta testing for knit or crochet patterns.
Karen 01:09 Okay. When you're using your computer and you get an update notification, but they're like, this feature is still in beta. Do you still want to do it? I'm always like, yes, because I always have faith that all of the bugs are worked out at that point. But there is technically that disclaimer that it could totally crash your whole system and it could just, like, ruin everything. You're agreeing to accept the risk that something really wild might happen.
Jessica 01:35 Similar. Yes. But I feel like since we're just talking about yarn, the chance of something really wild happening is smaller than doing something experimental on your computer or your phone. Right. But it's the pattern that's done. You can knit through the thing. It's just maybe looking for a little bit of shine, a little bit of Polish. So differentiating test knitters from the tech Editors. As a test knitter, you're not being asked to do math. You are not grading anything. You are part of a group of final set of eyes on this pattern. Because the designer and the tech editor have spent many, many hours looking at this. And sometimes when you read your own work, you don't see that you've written the word the twice next to each other in the paragraph explaining things. Your eyes just gloss over. That because your brain knows it says the doesn't care how many times it says it.
Karen 02:31 It's one of those things where sometimes just having a different set of eyes on something can help you identify things that are confusing.
Jessica 02:38 Yeah. You're engaging the hivef mind to say, could this be more clear? Could this be easier to work through? And the group of people who are doing this for you should collectively catch it.
Karen 02:51 Right?
Jessica 02:51 If it's unclear, yes.
Karen 02:53 As a knitter, what's the trade off? I am going to give this designer my time. What's the benefit to me?
Jessica 03:00 I like to think of the benefit to you as a knitter kind of layers. It's like an onion. There's a lot going on here. Test knitters are helpers. Nobody is like, I'm going to retire to an island somewhere on all the mad cash I made test knitting because it's not really a financial transaction. This is an opportunity to volunteer and engage and be part of the community, kind of similar to how people volunteer to be moderators in like an online social group or something. So you're not getting paid necessarily to be a test knitter, but you're being involved in the process. You're doing something to support a designer that presumably you like. You're not going to be like, this designer makes this thing that I would never wear. I don't like to look at. I don't like their design or color sensibilities. I'm going to volunteer for them. No, you like this person, and you want to see their body of work furthered. So you're helping them to create buzz about their projects. You're getting more visibility for your own personal knitting for whatever purpose that serves for you. Maybe you want to be more socially engaged. You want people to see your projects. You maybe are a budding designer, whatever that intention is. Your finished project pictures will get shared by the designer. It will be part of the body of projects listed on Revelry if they're being put there. So it's that kind of benefit.
Karen 04:23 So you're probably wanting to test knit something that you would want to knit anyway, and you get to keep it at the end.
Jessica 04:30 Right. There's a good opportunity to differentiate test knitters from sample knitters because there are people who knit things and they do get paid for it, but they're not doing anything to edit the pattern or contribute to the final version of the pattern. It's generally like a yarn Dier or a yarn shop saying, I would like a finished version of this project. I will pay you to knit this for us. That's not test knitting. That's sample knitting.
Karen 04:58 Right.
Jessica 04:58 Your test knit comes to live with you like, it never leaves you unless you're giving it away.
Karen 05:03 Right. And a lot of times designers are looking for test knitters who are a wide variety of body shapes and sizes, partially because they want to make sure that there's no mistake in the grading or something like that, but also because they want pictures on Ravelry or whatever platform they're selling their patterns on of their design on different bodies. They want you to knit the sweater, and then they want you to keep the sweater and you wear the sweater.
Jessica 05:29 And everyone falls in love with the sweater because you look so fantastic. Yeah.
Karen 05:35 So let's say you're interested in test knitting. What are the skills that you need to bring to your offer to help a designer by test knitting their design?
Jessica 05:44 That's a good question. You don't need to be the most experienced the most advanced knitter in the world. This probably shouldn't be your first project, but having solid foundation skills and the ability to read and understand a pattern is important. And also the willingness to acquire skills if it's necessary for the pattern is super important. So if you were like, I have no interest in doing whatever thing, whatever the skill this project calls for, don't apply to be a tester for that project.
Karen 06:22 I don't like cables. This is a cabled cardigan. Can I test knit it with no cables?
Jessica 06:28 No.
Karen 06:30 You could knit it with no cables. If you were like, I'm going to say a private knitter. If you were just knitting it yourself after the test knit, you could make whatever modifications you want. But I think part of the agreement that you're making and testing it is that you're going to follow the instructions that the designer is giving you.
Jessica 06:47 Yes. And I think related to that, there is some opportunity in testimony for alterations, like small changes to the patterns. And you can give that feedback to designers. But that kind of thing is like, my arms are short. I don't need to knit my arms 17 inches long. My arms are 15 inches long.
Karen 07:04 Right. It's like fit stuff.
Jessica 07:07 But not like I really want a keyhole peekaboo opening at the back of the neck of this sweater. I'm going to pop one in. Don't do that in a test knit process.
Karen 07:17 Especially recently where we've been seeing a lot of cropped patterns, the designer, when they put out the call, will say, like, mine is cropped. Feel free to knit the body long if you want a full length sweater. They want those pictures to share. They just don't want to knit that like six inches of fabric.
Jessica 07:35 Another thing that's really important is attention to detail.
Karen 07:39 Yes.
Jessica 07:40 If you're going to test it, you need to be willing to do a close reading of the pattern so you can give the designer feedback. Clear feedback. This whole process is give and take between knitter volunteers and the designer who is saying, I have done this thing. I have had a tech editor do their thing with the pattern. We think it's ready. You are the last process you're proofreading.
Karen 08:05 I think there's a degree of that in test knitting, except that you need to communicate with the designer.
Jessica 08:11 Dial back your knitter instincts to your earliest days of reading patterns and feeling tied to every letter on the page and do what it says. Because we spend a lot of time inferring what designers mean in patterns. We're cruising along on a sleeve, and you can fly right past increases or decreases or whatever instructions might be there because your brain is engaged in a way where you're like, I know how this works, right? I know what this is shaped like. I know what I need to do here. And I feel like that's often where more experienced knitters make mistakes is that you get ahead of yourself in a pattern. And then when things start to feel a little off, you're like, maybe I should go back and look at that.
Karen 08:55 I should read that page I just turned.
Jessica 08:57 Yeah. And you think to yourself, oh, I just skipped a whole section of instruction, or I filled in information that isn't actually there, and I'm doing something they didn't tell me to do.
Karen 09:08 Right.
Jessica 09:09 So test knitters need to resist that instinct and just do what the paper tells you to do.
Karen 09:16 It's probably not your first sweater, but it's somebody's first sweater, somebody who's going to look at this after it gets through the test knitter process and gets published and sold and whatever. And has never knit a sleeve before. And if you have just used your experienced knitter brain to 3D print a sleeve, that person still needs those instructions.
Jessica 09:36 Another one of those really valuable things that has to do with knitter attention to detail in the test knitting process is gauge.
Karen 09:45 Oh, yes.
Jessica 09:46 We talk a lot about gauge and swatching, like constantly all the time. So much swatching or instruction to Swatch because it's best practice whether or not you actually do. But if you're volunteering to do this for someone else to do it, well, you need to Swatch and you need to knit to gauge, because if you're knitting to whatever gauge you want or you ended up with, because those are the needles you grabbed, you're not really able to give them the kind of feedback that they're looking for because it's different.
Karen 10:20 Right.
Jessica 10:20 You're not doing what the pattern is asking you to do. So you got to do all the things, not just some of the things.
Karen 10:29 It can be really hard, especially because, like you were saying, test knitters are helpers and we try to be friendly and supportive of each other in the fiber community. But you are having to give constructive criticism. You're having to give feedback to this designer. I think it can be really helpful to think about it as doing a favor to the future, like to the tomorrow version of that designer.
Jessica 10:50 Right. You're helping to eliminate the need for pattern support after the fact.
Karen 10:54 Right. Because you are collaborating in this process. That is a communication based process. You are doing this for fun and to be helpful.
Jessica 11:04 And the final step of that fun and helpful is giving the feedback that they ask for, not just knitting your project. And designers will ask for that feedback in kind of a myriad of ways. Some will have like a Google form set up for you, and they've got really specific questions that they're asking, and you just kind of plonk in the answers because they want that information. Some of them communicate via email throughout the process, and there's not necessarily a pocket or a little pot to put that information in at the end. Some people use spreadsheets because they just want the numbers. But whatever the format the designer is using, you should be prepared to participate in that part of the process as well. And not just knit the thing and throw up a picture on your Instagram at the end and be like, I did a thing.
Karen 11:51 Take your free pattern and run.
Jessica 11:53 Yeah, please take the process to completion. If you're really throwing your hat in the ring for this kind of thing.
Karen 12:00 I'm thinking about Jessie Mae, who does this really wonderful thing. When she puts her patterns up where there are spreadsheets of basically all of her test knitters' measurements and what they knit and how it fits them, it's super helpful. It's great as a knitter, like deciding whether that's something you want to make for your body and what size you want to make and all that kind of thing. But if you are not comfortable sharing your body measurements with somebody, that's not a testament for you. If that's something that you're going to hit a stumbling block and just be like, well, I don't want to send her that information waiting by the pattern.
Jessica 12:34 Right.
Karen 12:36 You and the designer are both getting something from this, and you have to be fair to each other in this interaction.
Jessica 12:42 So maybe let's talk a little bit more about what test knitters get from the interaction.
Karen 12:46 Yeah.
Jessica 12:47 So we mentioned before that what test knitters get out of this is not payment. This is not your neighbor get rich quick scheme. But there are non monetary benefits. I would say maybe sometimes a designer might be able to offer some small stipend, but I think it's rare because really, it's not like the designers are getting rich doing this either.
Karen 13:07 And this has been a little bit of a debate as we get to a point in this industry where we're really intentional about compensating people for their time. You've maybe seen some of the conversations on social media around specifically designers getting paid. What it's worth, people will spend $200 on the yarn for a sweater, and then the pattern is $6, and they kind of go, oh, that's a lot for a pattern.
Jessica 13:32 It's so interesting. Yeah.
Karen 13:34 And like, it isn't a lot for a pattern, and the designer deserves to get paid. And so as we're seeing that adjustment happening, which thank goodness that is happening where people are charging appropriate amounts for their patterns, there has been some discussion about whether testers should also be monetarily compensated. And I think if that happened, we wouldn't see independent pattern designers anymore.
Jessica 13:55 I think it could definitely be burdensome to them. I guess I don't even know how to speculate, but not everyone lives off of their pattern design.
Karen 14:04 Most people don't.
Jessica 14:05 Right. And if you are asking for test knitters and we're going to use the example of a sweater because you need more test knitters for a sweater than you do for a hat, you maybe have 7, 9, 10 sizes available, which means you need a minimum of that number of test knitters. And oftentimes designers will want at least two test knitters per size.
Karen 14:30 Oh, more than that.
Jessica 14:31 Depending on what kind of information they're trying to harvest and use and still be able to manage and get through. But at that point, where does the money to pay them come from? What is part of the process? So having that be there as a question Mark, I think is an important part of the broader conversation in the community about compensating people for their time and their efforts. But also I think that there are lots of opportunities in the community for people to volunteer and participate and engage in things like you don't have to test knit.
Karen 15:04 Right. So I think that's really the key. If you are test knitting, you are knitting something you wanted to knit anyway.
Jessica 15:11 And you're knitting it for yourself to keep.
Karen 15:13 Yeah. And you're keeping the finished project. You are not paying for the pattern, but in exchange for you not paying for the pattern, you are providing this feedback.
Jessica 15:20 I mean, really, the issue of wages is a bigger topic than test knitting specifically today. But there are some things that test knitters do receive. Sometimes, in addition to the actual pattern that you're test knitting, there are some designers who will also offer you one or two or some number of other patterns that they've already written and published for free, if you would like.
Karen 15:41 Which is really nice and lovely of them and is more valuable to you if you're testing out something that you want to knit anyway, you like that designer.
Jessica 15:49 Periodically you'll see calls for test knits that are in partnership with a specific dyer. So you've got an indie designer and an indie dyer, and they're collaborating on this project. And sometimes you will be offered discount codes to knit using that yarn, which is nice. If you want to use that specific yarn.
Karen 16:08 Right. You're probably not under any obligation to do that. That would be in the testing call. If a dyer provides pattern support or a dye house provides pattern support, that's really nice because you get your finished project without having to pay the full price of the yarn.
Jessica 16:24 Yes. Love that journey for me. And, you know, this is an opportunity to be more engaged with the fiber community through social media, through whatever channels where this pattern is being featured. I said it before, but I really like to think of this as one of the few opportunities knitters have to volunteer in the community to further the craft. Yes. You're doing it for the love of knitting.
Karen 16:47 It's a community activity, too. A lot of times there will be like a closed slack channel or something for the test knitters. So it's like you get to just be part of this. It's fun.
Jessica 16:56 It's social, make new fiber friends.
Karen 16:58 Yeah.
Jessica 17:00 So if this sounds maybe appealing to you, here are a couple of things to keep in mind before you apply to be a test knitter. One. If you don't get into a test knit, don't be sad, don't be offended. They get lots and lots of applications. They can only accept so many people. It's not personal. It's just not your turn.
Karen 17:25 And sometimes they're looking for something very specific. They want somebody who's like a full range of heights and you're 5'6", and everyone else who's applied is 5'6". And next time it could be only people who are under 5ft who applied. So you'll be first on their list. Sometimes it's people they've worked with before.
Jessica 17:42 Oh, definitely. There are testers that knit for designers repeatedly, and they have a good relationship, and it's great. Another thing to think about is your time and availability. And sometimes life happens. Yes, things happen. You get tripped up. You have other obligations that get in the way. That's okay. You might not be able to finish on time. Just communicate that to your designer. They are not going to get mad at you.
Karen 18:08 No, they just want to know.
Jessica 18:10 Am I expecting the knitter's numbers or am I not, right? Communication is important, friends.
Karen 18:16 Designers don't want to be chasing down test knitters to try to get feedback. So if you've told them, hey, something came up, I'm just not going to be able to finish this. At least they're not sending you, like a million emails.
Jessica 18:27 Also in the same vein as good communication, don't ghost people. Don't just disappear, because if they accept you and you ghost them, that's a great way to not get accepted again.
Karen 18:37 Yeah. Jessica, talk about a few of the different ways that they might be collecting data at the end. Maybe they want to have big group test Zoom calls or something where you can show off what you're working on or ask questions live so that they're able to answer them where everyone can hear.
Jessica 18:52 Be ready to participate. Designers are great at communicating what they're going to be doing. And if you're like, I don't do Zoom and I don't do spreadsheets and I don't like to swatch and I'm not going to read your instructions. I'm just going to knit my thing.
Karen 19:08 Like, take a step back - here's my favorite thing about that. That was like my yuck list that you just said.
Jessica 19:17 I didn't mean to call you out like that.
Karen 19:20 It looks like you did.
Jessica 19:23 So if all of this has been said and you're still like, yeah, I think I'm into it because it's fun. It is fun. And you get to have amazing projects that maybe you wouldn't have gotten to if you weren't excited to test it them. Here are some resources for finding test knit calls.
Karen 19:42 There's a website, yarnpond.com, and that is for connecting designers, tech editors, knitters and crochetors and test knitters. So people will put out a call and then you can respond to it. I think there's also like a test knitting group, like a big test knitting group on Ravelry. And some of the individual designers have their own test knitting groups or boards.Â
Jessica 20:05 Yeah. I know that lots of designers have active groups still, and they will put up the test calls there because they have an engaged community where they know that they'll get the response that they're looking for. And it's an easy place for them to keep those communications in one little pot instead of spreading it across Internet channels.
Karen 20:24 There's an Instagram account to follow.
Jessica 20:27 There's an account called fattestknits - all one word. And whenever I read it, I always read it fattest-knits, but it's fat-test-knit. It's a great account. It's moderated by a small team of people, and they have guidelines for designers to meet so that they can request that test kits will share their call. For test knitters, they require that your patterns be size inclusive. And when they say size inclusive, they have, like, strict parameters about what that means.
Karen 20:59 Awesome.
Jessica 21:00 They also accept crochet calls and very rarely sewing calls as well. Sophie Hines is a popular lingerie designer who people have had feelings about her limited size range for a long time, and she's working to expand it. And I recently saw her being posted on their Instagram account to offer her designs up to a wider range of bodies, which is really exciting. The maker community is into making all sorts of things. Additionally, designers will announce calls specifically on their Instagram accounts. So keep an eye out for designers that you're following. The last two test nuts that I applied to was because I saw the calls on Instagram and thought, you know what? I would like to knit those things. And then my life got really hectic real fast when I was actually accepted into them. So be careful what you ask for.
Karen 21:54 Right.
Jessica 21:55 So test knitting is fun and test knitting is definitely not for everyone. But if you think I would like to make some yarn homework for myself.
Karen 22:05 Knit, but make it a little stressful.
Jessica 22:08 It's so good I do this, and then I think, I don't know if I really am a test knitter. And then six or nine months later, I'm like, I'm going to apply for a bunch of test knits and see what happens.
Karen 22:18 Yeah. And right now, you finished one, you have the two that we're running concurrently.
Jessica 22:22 Yes.
Karen 22:22 You finished one, and you're like a little crunched to finish the other, but not super crunched, which is nice.
Jessica 22:28 Yeah. By the time you all are listening to this, both patterns will be out and the test knitting will be done. And I will just be blissfully wearing my projects and not frantically going, oh God, am I going to make it in time?
Karen 22:45 So speaking of that, what's on your needles, Jessica?
Jessica 22:49 We're going to say not my test knits, even though definitely one of them is still there. And I'm not telling on myself. So also, my Soorik is calling to me from an abandoned project bag. This poor yarn that I love so intensely keeps getting put down for other things. Like, I've been trying to knit this yarn for like two years at this point - two and a half - and I keep finding reasons to not be knitting it, even though it brings me intense joy to do so. Hopefully in the coming days, it will just be me bonding with my Wilder yarn. What's on your needles, Karen?
Karen 23:23 I picked my Gresham Wrap up again. Also, a little disclaimer is that I'm working on a secret project that is a gift for somebody who might be listening to this. So I'm going to be a little cagey for a little bit about what I'm knitting. But there's a secret project that's happening. It's not like a nebulous different secret project. So good surprise.
Jessica 23:44 Yeah.
Karen 23:44 And I'll talk about it a lot because I have a lot of feelings about it and I really like it. There are stories, right? Oh, there are stories. But I'm going to be a little bit like "uhhhhh a thing" for a couple weeks on here. Are you ready for a letter?
Jessica 24:00 Yes, I am. Let's do it.
Karen 24:17 This week's letter comes from Sophia. This year I'm finally going to start colorwork. I hear again and again that two-handed colorwork is the way to do it. My left hand is pretty useless when it comes to doing anything and knitting with both hands. Can I do this? I watched a bunch of HowTo videos on YouTube, and honestly, I'm even more discouraged. How can I suddenly start using my nearly nonfunctional left hand? I'm an English style knitter, and my left hand just holds stuff. What's the best way to learn colorwork for someone like me? Can you recommend good virtual knitting classes for beginner colorwork? There are too many things on YouTube, and it isn't really helping me.
Jessica 24:55 Yes, Sophia, I can offer you some words of advice and recommend an online class. So first of all, you may hear again and again that twohanded color work is the way to do it, and that's someone's opinion and it's someone's preference. But it's not a rule. You don't have to do that if it's not what's comfortable in your hands. There are lots of people who hold their yarn, multiple strands of it in one hand, and you can do that. Whether you're an English style knitter or a Continental style knitter. Doesn't matter what hand is dominant. It is how you are comfortable holding your yarn. You can tension the yarn in two strands around the same finger. You can do it around multiple fingers. You can get one of those.
Karen 25:43 Cool.
Jessica 25:44 I don't know what the name of them are. Rings that have the little coils that you run the yarn through, and that helps you tension your yarn.
Karen 25:52 It helps you tension and it helps you keep from twisting it when you're working, which is the problem I personally run into when I'm doing color work with one hand because I am a little clumsy doing that. I put my yarn down, pick the other yarn back up, and it just ends up in this spiral.
Jessica 26:08 There is nothing wrong with knitting with one strand at a time. I knit color work for a long time where I would knit with one color, drop it and grab the other color and knit with that until I needed to change and I was pretty fast at it. That's not the wrong way to do it. If you enjoy doing it that way and you're getting the results that you want right, do your thing. That said, if you want to use two hands to knit color work, you have to learn how to do it. Of course, for you. If your left hand is your hand for just holding things, it's going to take practice and some patience to train that hand to be more active in participating in your knitting. I would say maybe start with a little project or a Swatch to practice those skills and not a claudonia or some other like all over color work, fingering weight sweater, do something small and manageable to experiment. And that will be less frustrating for you than trying to do a really big project that's very involved all at once.
Karen 27:09 You could absolutely just knit something again, small, just using your nondominant hand to hold the yarn. Because just to get that practice in without having tension issues in, I'm going to say a real project in something that you're looking for a good finished result on it's. Just practice.
Jessica 27:29 Yeah. And then a coffee cup cozy like low investment, 40 yards of yarn and your hands get to practice those movements and your coffee cup doesn't care what it looks like.
Karen 27:41 It's like the knitter equivalent of a junk page in a sketchbook.
Jessica 27:46 Yes. I think that that's the only way to work through these things you learn by doing just do the thing in a low stakes kind of way for you.
Karen 27:56 And if that technique doesn't work for you, if you don't like it, you don't have to do it.
Jessica 28:01 There's always another option. I think that your point about YouTube being overwhelming is a valid one. There is a lot out there. Some of the YouTube videos that you'll find are super high quality, like excellent instruction, and some of them are less than that. And it's really difficult to navigate and sort through if you don't know what you're looking for. If you want to take an actual, organized online class, the School of Sweet Georgia has a class on modern color work knitting that takes you from beginner introductory color work knitting to advanced skills. Otherwise, I would say reach out to your local yarn shop and connect with them to see what resources they have available. They might know of someone local. They might have other online resources that they like to direct their knitters to, but ask around and try different things Because what works for one person isn't the answer for everyone.
Karen 28:58 Good luck, Sophia. Should we do a make good stash down check in?Â
Jessica 29:07 We sure should. So it's the last week of February. Fake. What just came out of my mouth. It's seriously the end of the month, friends. And we have one month left to go and then make good stash down. I'm stunned. I'm stunned that it's this far into the year. And also, I am shocked at how many things you all have worked on.
Karen 29:28 There's not going to be a skein in stash left.
Jessica 29:32 Speaking of, can I tell you all a story? An experience that I had with a knitter at Scratch this week Because my heart is still racing thinking about this. So this person came in and she said to me, I haven't been in about two years Because of the pandemic and other things. Understandable, we hear that a lot from people. It's fine. And then she looked at me and said to me, I knit all of my yarn. Like, all of it. She knit through her stash and there was no yarn left in her house that wasn't already a thing. We've been doing this for years. No one has ever said that to me. I constantly hear "I've got so much yarn, I could open a yarn shop. I'll never knit through my stash in my whole life." This woman did it and was like, I can't knit anymore because I have no yarn. I guess I have to go buy some. So I think she maybe won the stash down. Perhaps she didn't know she was participating. She didn't know it existed and yet. So I don't expect any of you will necessarily get to a point where your house has no yarn in it. But we are really excited to see your progress and cheer you on as you work through your sash and your work in progress.
Karen 30:52 You can listen to us wherever you get your audio podcasts.
Jessica 30:55 Possibly wherever you have gotten this one. Subscribe so you keep getting them. Rate and review us. Tell your friends, it helps spread the word. It helps other knitters find us.
Karen 31:06 You can follow us on Instagram at make good pod. Super big, huge.
Jessica 31:10 Thank you to our Patreon supporters. We love you. We appreciate you. You're amazing, and you help us do this all the time without any advertising, which we love.
Karen 31:19 You can visit our website makegoodpod.com that's where the show notes are. The show notes are also attached to this episode. However, you're listening to it and you can send us question dear scratch at scratch supply co.com.
Jessica 31:31 Or use the fun little contact form on the website.
Karen 31:34 We'll talk to you next week. Bye.