New episodes every Tuesday!
Jan. 25, 2022

58: Frogging

58: Frogging

This week we're talking about unraveling your knits! Frogging and tinking, WIPs or FOs. This week's letter is about our favorite things to knit.


It's called "frogging" because you rip-it, rip-it, rip-it out. Then there's tinking, which is just knitting in reverse! (Technically that would be gnittink, I suppose, but let's just go with it.)

I did a kind of iffy job of explaining using dental floss as a lifeline. Interweave explains it better here.

What's on our needles this week:

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Transcript

Karen
Hi, and welcome to Make Goods podcast about yarn and knitting from scratch supplies. We're recording today in downtown Lebanon, New Hampshire, and we're really excited to be here. I'm Karen.

Jessica
And I'm Jessica.

Karen
We're going to talk about frogging today.

Jessica
Kind of scary and kind of exciting.

Karen
Let's start by telling people what frogging is and why we call it frogging.

Jessica
We get asked this periodically, so today is the day to address it. Frogging is the process of unraveling your nits. So you're just taking apart all of the hard work that you put into it. And you've maybe heard us mention this before, but frogging is called frogging because you rip it, rip it out, which kind of sounds like the noise a frog makes. If you're an English Speaker, you say ribbon, ribbon. I don't know what frogs say in other languages.

Karen
So if you're frogging a work in progress, you're going to be taking the needles out and pulling it back row by row. There are a couple of ways you can do that, but basically you're just rewinding your knitting.

Jessica
You might also want to frog a finished project. It's one thing if you're taking out your work in progress because of mistakes, but you might have knit something and then just found that it's not a project that you ever wear and you really like the yarn or have some other purpose for it. Maybe you're going to do some charity knitting with it or it's going to go to someone else, but the project cannot continue to exist as it is. So that's going to involve a little bit more work. I think if you've already woven in ends and done finished work, frogging in those circumstances mean that you're going to have to spend some time finding those ends that you have diligently woven in and hidden and kind of unpicking undoing any seams that might exist. Pulling out your Bindoff and then ripping it out row by row from there.

Karen
Pulling out a bind off is like my least favorite thing to have to do because Bindoffs are meant to just last. They're like the knots at the end of your knitting.

Jessica
Basically, I feel like Bindoffs kind of imply some sort of permanence and finality for this knit thing that you have. And taking them apart is not always as easy as one might expect. Additionally, if you're not sure, like, if you didn't knit the thing but you're taking it apart, determining where the bind off is versus the cast on can be a whole different situation.

Karen
Right? Depending on the method of bind off and the method of cast on that are used, it can be really hard to tell the difference. Or sometimes it's super obvious if you're actually looking at it, you can be like, oh, totally, this is the bind off, but not always.

Jessica
And you really can't rip from the cast on. You need to cut that if you're moving from that direction.

Karen
Yeah, so maybe you're just pulling back a single row. Maybe you're pulling back a whole section. Maybe you're pulling back your whole project when you're doing your frogging.

Jessica
I think that one of the things that's a helpful tip is to kind of keep yarn management in mind, because if it's like one or two rows, that's not that much yardage. But if you're ripping back inches of a project, you're about to have a giant pile of crimpy ramen noodlesque yarn in your lap. And the chances of that tangling and becoming knotted increase with every yard that you rip back.

Karen
The yarn has a memory. So it's like those old phone cards, five or six foot long twirly phone cords that people born before 1985 still remember and how tangled those would get. That's what your yarn is going to do with the crimpiness that's in it, depending a little bit on how long it's been since you knit the stitches. You're frogging one row you did immediately before you frogged. It might not be as bad as if it's been sitting in a bag for two years waiting for the courage to frog it.

Jessica
So one of the ways you can avoid tangling is to wind. As you're doing it, you can rip out some length of yarn and start winding it into a ball. Or if you're fortunate enough to have access to a ball Winder, either at home or at your friendly local yarn shop, you can attach the yarn that you're frogging to the ball Winder and just crank out the sweater or the hat or whatever it is in reverse and have your yarn caked up and ready for the next stage of its life.

Karen
When you're working from a center pole ball, one of the things I like to do is sort of wrap it at, like, a 90 degree angle around the ball as I'm frogging. So that then as you're re knitting, you can figure out where you were. You're like, oh, I've finally done everything I already did. Sometimes that's like an emotional roller coaster because you're like, wow, I just spent three weeks redoing yarn that I'd already knit. I don't like that.

Jessica
I have a project with a rewrapped diagonal wrap all of yarn in my bag right now. Yeah, it's a mile marker for you.

Karen
It is really nice to be able to just throw the unpicked end on a ball Winder and just go.

Jessica
And we actually do that fairly often.

Karen
For people, it can be really hard to frog your own stuff. So we'll have people who will come in with their like, I finished this sweater, and I just really realized the shoulders are not right and they'll pick out the bind off, and then we'll plunk the now loose end on the ball Winder, and it's just boom. Now you're back to cakes. Sometimes they're like weird little cakes because you've cut to finish sections or whatever, but at least you're not having to do it by hand.

Jessica
Also, sometimes they're excitingly big cakes and you don't know when they're going to end because the yarn has been spliced together. So it's kind of multiple skeins into one giant stick of yacht.

Karen
That's so satisfying. So if you're working with particularly fuzzy or sticky yarn like Mohair or something like that, first of all, Frogging, that is kind of a nightmare because all of the little bits that give it the Halo that's like why you used it in the first place are going to stick to each other. And Frogging double strands held together also kind of even if none of it is mohair, it's kind of like those strands are married because they're all twisted. It just doesn't work. But if it's really fuzzy or sticky, you can put it in the freezer, and that will help make those little hairy bits a little less sticky. It's a really slow process because it's only helpful for as long as the yarn is still kind of frozen. So they take it out of the freezer. You can work with it for a couple of minutes until it warms back up, and then you have to put it back in the freezer.

Jessica
Yeah. It's shocking that it works, though. It's a pretty cool trick because on my own I would not have come to that conclusion. So Yay for information sharing among snitters. Yeah.

Karen
And you're going to want to make space in your freezer for this.

Jessica
Don't put your knits in the ice bin.

Karen
Right.

Jessica
You'll be sad unless you want a fuzzy gin and tonic for your renitting later.

Karen
Okay, so I'm kind of an impulsive Frogger.

Jessica
Yeah.

Karen
But there are people who are very thoughtful about it.

Jessica
Yeah. Frogging may or may not be an emotional hurdle for you as a knitter. For some people, there are big feelings about Frogging, and those are valid. And feel your feelings and find some knitter friends to support you. And other people are like, this is just another step in my process. Do I need to do this or do I not? But there are questions that you can ask yourself before you jump into Frogging and me of three days ago, former me wishes that I had maybe done that. And I'm going to tell you a short story before we ask some of these questions for you to mull over in your knitting life. So if you're a regular listener, you may recall that I spent a year telling you about my lot address, that I'm knitting out of Wilder that I loved until a week ago when I didn't love it anymore.

Karen
And I Frogged, it the pattern, not the yarn.

Jessica
Oh, yeah, I love the yarn. And frankly, the pattern is fine, too. But I just emotionally moved on.

Karen
Sometimes ideas and projects have an expiration date, and if they don't get done before their expiration date, if you're checked out, they're just never going to happen.

Jessica
Right? And I have so much of this yarn, and I love this yarn so much. I was like, knitting something else. I'm going to do it.

Karen
So I did.

Jessica
I frogged it. I felt good about that frogging. I still stand by feeling good about that frogging. And I started knitting a new dress, and this one is bottom up. So the cast on with a lot of stitches, like, so many stitches. Hundreds. And that's fine, too. And I knit, and I knit, and I knit. And at some point, I thought I should probably reference the pattern. And I looked at it, and I said, oh, no, I've made a terrible mistake. And I frogged, like, 20 rows of this very stitchful project. My needles, like, so many stitches. And I just frogged wildly, and I wound that yarn back up around my cake. Went to start knitting again, double checking where I was after I put all of the stitches back on my needle and then realized that I'd made a terrible mistake.

Karen
That's the worst.

Jessica
I jumped ahead in the pattern. So I was reading the section that I hadn't gotten to quite yet and thought, oh, no, I didn't do the instruction here. I have to rip all of this out and then realize that I missed reading part of it and just booped ahead and erroneously ripped out 20 rows of distress.

Karen
That's a nightmare.

Jessica
That was my impulsive frogging story. I think it's the only time in my knitting life ever, that I have impulsively frogged a project, and I regret it deeply.

Karen
Often. Like if something's really gone wrong, I'll frog altogether. I used to frog a lot more than I do often. Now I will frog when I've tried to drop back and it's gone wrong.

Jessica
That happens sometimes.

Karen
Yeah. Decisions are hard, and we definitely know people who knit at the store who will spend weeks deciding whether they're going to frog something or not. They'll hit a snag, they'll look at it and say, oh, I think I might need to rip this back. I'm going to set it aside and think about it. I am not that person.

Jessica
Sometimes you need to take that emotional distance, though, and it can be valuable. And while you're taking that time, if you're inclined to do so, you can ask yourself, can I fix the mistake without ripping everything out? Sometimes, yes. Sometimes you have to try and you find out the answer is no. And really, it didn't hurt you to try. If you're going to end up ripping out either way, give it a shot. If the issue is not a mistake, but it's a finished project fit issue, or even while you're in progress, sometimes you're knitting things, and as it starts to take shape in your hands, it's not what you envisioned compared to the editorial pattern photos that you see when you're choosing your project. And you have to ask yourself, will I ever wear this thing right sometimes you're not going to.

Karen
That's like the most heartbreaking Frogging, I think because you're like, I knit it. I did all the instructions, I followed the pattern, I made it work, and I just don't like it. Yes, that's sad trombone.

Jessica
I have a couple of pieces like that that have either been given away to the universe or have been retired in some other way. Another question, when you're considering Frogging, if you know something's going to not be really what you want to wear, do I like this yarn enough that I'd like to knit with it again? Because if the answer is no, maybe you don't Frog it. Maybe you find a friend that that garment or accessory would look great on and you just give it to them and release it to the universe. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that either. Frogging isn't always an eventuality. There are other solutions. This was a question I should have asked myself before my fateful events of the other night. Did I read the pattern correctly? Sometimes the answer is no. Is there actually anything wrong, or am I just not understanding what I'm looking at?

Karen
And then the other thing that's really the deciding factor, if you've determined that there is something wrong between Frogging or disposing of the project is whether you had a good enough tactile experience with the yarn that you actually want to reexperience it. If you have gotten some distance into your project and you're like, I am just not enjoying this yarn. My hands don't like it. Too slippery, too sticky, too thick, too thin, too whatever. Don't make yourself knit with it twice.

Jessica
No, don't do it. That's a mistake. There's too much good yarn out there, right, for you to force yourself to use things you don't want to be using. So let's switch gears a tiny bit. We're still in the taking apart your project mode, but let's talk about tinking for a minute, because tinking is not quite the same as Frogging, but it is a valuable tool in taking apart your knitting.

Karen
Tinking is if you just look at the word Tink, it's just knit backwards. You're just basically picking back from where you were. It takes longer than Frogging. It will save you the re knitting. And so you usually do it. When you've made a mistake, like relatively close to where you are in your knitting, you're like a row back.

Jessica
You don't need to get so dramatic that you're pulling your needles out entirely or taking drastic measures. Sometimes the thought of knitting backwards is confusing to people. So the actual process of tinking, I'm going to quickly and clearly try to explain it to you. What you're doing is you're taking the needle that holds your stitches. If you're a righthanded knitter, this will be your left needle. If you're a lefthanded knitter, this will be your right needle. But it's the needle that has stitches that you are going to work into. If you're knitting in your regular direction, you're going to take the point of that needle. You're going to insert it not into the stitch that's live on your working needle, but one stitch below. And as you're doing that, you're kind of gently pulling your working yarn out of that loop. So it's putting the stitch back onto your non working needle, your holding needle. And it's preparing that stitch to be knit again. When you get to it, you might need to do this for five stitches. You might need to do it for 150 to get across that row. But you're unworking what you just did.

Karen
A lot of times when you do this, your stitches could end up twisted. That can also happen with frogging. If you frog back like twelve inches and then you decide to put your needles back in instead of using like a lifeline that we'll talk about in a minute. When you're picking it up, you might find that the wrong leg of the stitch is in front. That's fine. Just fix it before you knit the stitch. When you're working back in the I'm going to call it the productive direction. Right.

Jessica
Making progress.

Karen
Yeah.

Jessica
If you're ripping back on Pearl rose, it's functionally, the same thing. Just make sure that you are holding your yarn to the front when you're tinking back. Tinking is a funny word when you're talking about pearls. What would that be? When you're lurping across the road, it's the same function. You just want your working yarn on the front side of your fabric so it's not fighting with you from the opposite orientation.

Karen
Every once in a while when I'm thinking you kind of get into the rhythm of it and I'll think back way farther than I need to. Like, it'll just be like moving backwards. You don't have to look at the pattern. You're paying attention to what's on Netflix or happening in your meeting or whatever. Then you realize you've tinked like four rows instead of a half a row that you needed to.

Jessica
It's meditative. It's soothing.

Karen
Frogging in particular, can feel chaotic. It's a chaos activity. Taking your needles out, you're going to just kind of wildly rip.

Jessica
I think my heart's racing a little bit.

Karen
It's particularly chaotic, I think with super wash yarn, like slippery yarn. And can I just say this is one of those places where crochet has 18 different legs up on knitting, because when you're ripping that crochet, it's a single stitch.

Jessica
It's a satisfying like pop.

Karen
Yeah.

Jessica
And there's only one to manage at a time.

Karen
If you go too far, that's okay. You still know where your stitches. So you're going to end up with all of these unsecured stitches. You could just put your needle back through. Or maybe you want to use a lifeline.

Jessica
So lifelines are handy tools that knitters use, and the knitters who use them are planners.

Karen
Yes. They buy insurance when they're checking out at Best Buy. And they're like, do you want the replacement two year guarantee thing? They're like, you know what?

Jessica
Yes, I do. When they go to the dentist and the dentist says, do you floss every day? They never lie. They just always do. Like they are planners and they're prepared. So lifelines are strands like some sort of string that gets placed through stitches in your knitting, not while the needle has been pulled out, but sometime before that.

Karen
Preventative.

Jessica
Yes, preventative. Use Smarty pants. Good for you. So you can use dental floss. You can use scrap yarn. You can use those trendy Barber cords that everyone is so in love with at the moment. And they're super handy. They're fun tools. But what you're doing is you're taking this line and you are running it through a row or a section of stitches. It can be the entirety of the row. It can be a section that has like cables or lace work because you anticipate there could be a problem in that area. And what that's doing is it's like a bookmark for those stitches. So if you need to go back, you can go exactly back to where you need to.

Karen
One of the reasons people use dental floss, in particular, is that it's not sticky. You can thread it through some needles, have like a hole in them at the start of your row. You can thread it through the hole on your working yarn and hold it double with your cord while you're knitting that row. And then when you get to the end of that row, you're going to want to cut it and take it back out of the hole. You don't want to just bring it with you all the way. You're leaving it in those stitches.

Jessica
You're not Marling.

Karen
Right? The reason people like that is that then when it's time to pull it out, it doesn't stick. That's what's nice about the Barber cords, too, is they're like silicone. There's some kind of fishing apparatus, but they're like a little stretchy. They're like these little hollow silicone tubes. Tubes. And for those you don't really hold it double. You're going to stick a needle into one end of the tube and either knit it through or sew it through, because that's the other thing you can do is if you knit a row and say, I want a lifeline here, you just take whatever you're using for your lifeline and thread it through the stitches that are live on your cord, leave them where they are and keep going.

Jessica
Yeah. So if you've placed a lifeline three inches down the road in your project, when you pull out your needles and just start wildly ripping back, your yarn will stop. When you get to the lifeline row, it can't drop down any further because that lifeline is holding those stitches in place and it makes it easier to pop your needles back in. So you can start knitting forward because you don't have to worry about dropping stitches down in your work past where you would like them to be.

Karen
We definitely have people who come into the store. I've done this myself. You make a mistake and you realize you're going to have to frog. And so you figure out where you need to sew waste yarn or something in a couple of inches down from where you are. That does work. If you're doing that, you want to make sure you have a good surface to lay your project out on, and there's not a 0% chance that you're going to get off. People will sew a row up or they'll sew a row down. And you figure that out when you're ripping. Like if it gets caught and there's stitches up above or it won't rip past a certain point, then you've gotten out of alignment and you can deal with that when you see it.

Jessica
It's pretty handy. It's a cool trick to have in your pocket. So if you've frogged and now your project no longer exists and your yarn is wildly crimpy and curly, and you think to yourself, I don't want to knit like this. This is not my life. I want my yarn to be how I remember it being the yarn that I loved. You can fix that. Wool has memory. Lots of fibers have memory. But if there is crimp in it, yarn is just hair for the most part. Unless you're dealing with some, like, non protein, that's a different story. But it's hair. If you have straight hair and you take a crimper, we're going to say crimper. No curling iron. We're going 80s and you crimp your hair. It's not crimped forever. Or if you just have naturally curly hair, there are ways to make it straight. This is true of your yarn, too, restoring your yarn to its formerly smooth strand status. You need to get it out of the ball that you have wounded into, so you're going to turn it back into a looped skein. If you've got a Swift at home, you can just attach one end to that and start slowly spinning it to bring the yarn back up onto the Winder.

Karen
That's really fun. And Jessica saying slowly, I say go as fast as you want to, because it's fun.

Jessica
But if you don't have a Swift at home, you can also use the back of a chair. You can put your knees up in a little triangle and wrap it around your knees. You can convince a loved one to hold their hands up as you wind back around their hands. Just get that yarn back into a skein shape.

Karen
Yeah, like not a twisted skein. Like a loop.

Jessica
Yup. You're also going to want to secure your ends and put some ties around it. Remember, when you open that Skein up before it was wound, there were ties around the yarn. You can do that with some scrap yarn or you could use shower curtain rings to put around them, and that's to keep it from collapsing back on itself and getting tangled.

Karen
Can we talk about the shower curtain rings for a minute?

Jessica
Sure.

Karen
Okay. So when we say shower curtain rings, we don't mean like the s hooks that go over the bars. There are those plastic circles that have like a little snap on one side. I looked for those forever because they are really helpful in your dying yarn. Also the Dollar Store. They come from the Dollar store. I think the other thing you can use that you may have around your house is zip ties.

Jessica
Yes.

Karen
Like if either you or someone you live with likes to zip tie cables together, those work really well.

Jessica
I like that it's not someone needs to do a project, but just someone likes to tie them together.

Karen
I feel like there's different levels. I am conscious of this different levels of comfort with cable chaos, like electronic cable chaos. And some people deal with their discomfort with that by hiding those in things that's me or by zip tying them into one big monster cable and that's other people.

Jessica
Anyway, so you're going to secure that skein and then you're going to give it a little bath. Just let it soak in a bowl or a sink full of cool water. If you want to put some soak or eucalypt or something in there, you can do that too, but it's not really necessary. Just let it soak until it's saturated. Then you're going to gently squeeze the water out and hang that beautiful yarn back up and just let it dry on its own.

Karen
So you want to hang it so it's like a loop that's hanging down.

Jessica
And then once it's completely dry, it's ready to do whatever you want with it. You can twist it back up into a skein and store it. Or you can wind it into a ball and knit with it and you're ready to go gay frogging and think and letting you live your best knitting life by working through mistakes and not being emotionally tied to things that you don't want to wear or knit.

Karen
Right. It's a really freeing feeling. And it's also really nice to know that you haven't wasted the materials. If you decide that you don't actually want to renew the thing you're working with, you can reclaim the yarn magical. What's on your needles.

Jessica
Jessica So many things, but today I just want to profess my love for one of my test knots. I spent some time working on my great gingham pullover that I'm test knitting for Jesse May last night and I'm just so stupidly in love with this project. Knitting gingham is so much fun. I recommend to everyone who hasn't knit gingham before, which I feel like is most of us.

Karen
Oh yeah.

Jessica
I don't think I've ever seen a knit gingham pattern, but when this becomes available to everyone super go knit it because it's fun way to do color work. And I just am really pleased with my color choices and watching my spin cycle shift from Grays to creams to peachy Orange. And it's getting good. It's exciting.

Karen
I think what's really neat about knitting gingham is color work is that it's replicating a weaving technique. And of course, you're just alternating. That's how you would do gingham in leaving. You would alternate. It's just neat crossover. Yeah. I'm just like doing this weird thing with my hands. Take something that you see in one mode of creation and figure out how to make this other mode of creation do that thing. It's really cool.

Jessica
Yeah. Very fun. What's on your needles, Karen?

Karen
So I cast on the Amber wing socks by Summer Lee. It's that Rusamina technique, that Estonian color work technique, apart from my little Kerrfuffle with it yesterday. I'm really, really loving it because I was just in this place where, on a scale of zero, where zero is completely brainless, and 100, where, I don't know, 100 is brain full.

Jessica
Very engaged, super focused.

Karen
My Gresham was at zero at the point where I am on it, and my deliciosa is all the way at 100. And I just needed something in the middle. And I've been wanting to try this technique, so I'm really excited about it. I'm really loving it.

Jessica
They're going to be super cute. Socks.

Karen
Yeah. You're like stitching little moths on it. It's cool.

Jessica
Adorable. And I have to say, we've got stellar colors picked.

Karen
Oh, yeah. Jessica picked my colors. It's really good. Hi, Jessica.

Jessica
Yes, Karen?

Karen
Are you ready for a letter?

Jessica
I absolutely am. Let's do this.

Karen
I think this might be our shortest letter ever, and it comes to us from Justine.

Jessica
Hi, Justine.

Karen
What are your favorite knits? Oh, that's it. Yes. That's all.

Jessica
I kind of love that. All right. So I'm just going to talk about the types of things I like to knit. I, as you may have, gleaned from listening to this podcast and an enthusiastic sweater knitter. I really love knitting sweaters, but specifically, I really love cardigans. I think I like wearing them most, but I feel like I should have more good pullovers in my wardrobe. So I'm excited about this test knit, but cardigans are my jam. And while I aesthetically love color work, I generally don't think I love knitting it, which is something I just recently realized about myself. It's beautiful. I love color work, and I appreciate it. But then when I look at my most worn knits and the things that I had the most fun knitting, no color work, single color projects.

Karen
Interesting.

Jessica
Yeah. It's introspection time in my knitting life, and I'm discovering new things about myself, whereas I don't knit tons of texture, but I really love doing it when I do, like my cinnabar shawl. The brioche was so much fun, I find myself thinking, could I sneak brioche into this project that I'm knitting that doesn't contain it. So, yeah, that's where I'm at. Cardigans and loving texture and single color projects at this point.

Karen
What about you, Karen?

Jessica
What do you like to knit? What are your favorite things?

Karen
So textured sweaters. I've very much shifted pullovers. I'm not really a big cardigan wearer, and my track record with sticking is zero for one, so I don't do it a lot, although I did knit two that I've really liked. I'm really into color work on smaller projects, though, like mittens and socks and that kind of thing. Hats. Although I have been wearing the heck out of my claudonia.

Jessica
Because it's gorgeous.

Karen
Because it's gorgeous. And darn it, I am wearing that for four times as many hours as it took me to knit it.

Jessica
Right.

Karen
Three years from now, I'll be there.

Jessica
You know what I think the color work thing is for me? I like to just focus on what's happening in my hands, and I don't like being tied to a pattern. So I think part of the reason I'm really enjoying this Gingham project, even though it's all over color work, is that it's only a ten row colorwork section, so I can memorize that and I don't have to refer back to it. So I think it's like my level of engaging with the wool versus my level of engaging with the paper.

Karen
Yeah. I think for me, my interest in texture is more about the yarn I want to be knitting with. I'm knitting with Superwash right now, but for sweaters, I've just been really enjoying non Superwash and texture works so nicely for it.

Jessica
Yeah. Wholly wonderful world out there.

Karen
I think that might be it for us this week. Really?

Jessica
Yeah. We kicked off our Make Good stash down Midalong on Sunday.

Karen
Oh, yeah.

Jessica
We are underway. So start posting wildly on Instagram and use the hashtag Makegoodstashdown so we can see one of you at the end of March will win a gift card to scratch Pico, and you can replenish your stash after you've eaten up a bunch of it in your exciting new 2022 project.

Karen
So you can listen or subscribe to this podcast anywhere you get your audio podcasts, perhaps, where you're listening to it right now.

Jessica
Rate and review us. We appreciate you. You spreading the good word about Make Good tells other knitters that we exist, and we just want this community to keep growing.

Karen
You can follow us on Instagram at Makegoodpod Big.

Jessica
Thank you to our Patreon supporters. We appreciate you. We love you, and we like sharing sneak peeks of things with you over there on the oldie Patreon.

Karen
You can visit our website for all of the show notes that's makegoodpod.com you can send letters to Deerscratch@scratchsupplyco.com. And last thing that I can't believe I forgot to mention earlier, we're going to be doing virtual Craft night the first Thursday of every month, so you can go to the scratch website scratchsupplyco.com and up in the top link. There's a thing for virtualcraft night because we're kind of getting back to in person here, but we really don't want to lose connection with the podcast people who have been zooming in from afar so we're going to do that first Thursday every month.

Jessica
We'll see you soon, bye.